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Imagine there existed a cooperative dedicated to bringing GNOME forward, and its members worked full time on polishing the ecosystem.

If the designers and engineers announced their projects, and a communication team kept you posted of progress.

Would you throw money at it? And how would you contribute?

🔄 boosts welcome

@bzg tu penses que ça peut intéresser du monde dans ton entourage de jeter de l’argent à ce problème ?

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@thibaultamartin @codelutin est-ce que ce genre d’association peut rentrer dans les clous de vos campagnes d’aide ? Sous réserve de dossier solide et projet chiffré bien sûr, mais est-ce que ça rentre dans le périmètre de ce que vous cherchez à promouvoir ?

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@thibaultamartin Is there a reason this organisation would not be an initiative under the GNOME Foundation and instead a coop? The foundation already employs at least one full-time employee, and I think if it had more money, it could employ more to achieve the goals you mentioned.

Do you mean a coop in the company law sense? Does that mean it would have an income source other than the donations?

(I hope I do not sound negative, I am curious but couldn't express that via text :) )

@cagatayy There is! The foundation is not supposed to interfere with or drive the development of GNOME.

I mean a cooperative as a legal entity not made for profit but only to allow people to be paid to work full time on GNOME.

Its only source of income would be donation. I think mostly from individuals, but why not from companies to a certain extent. I wouldn’t want a company to acquire power over it by becoming the principal funder

@thibaultamartin I would do a proper monthly donation if I know that the money is spend to pay someone writing code, not for travels or social activism. If whatever comes out at the end can guarantee that expect at least 20 bucks per month.

@Alexmitter I get what you mean, and this is not a call for funding to the GNOME Foundation.

I do agree with you that transparency is a strict requirement when donations are involved.

That said, I must point out that communicating properly milestones, goals, achievements, etc is foundational for efficient transparency, and is not a developer’s job. Proper reporting and fundraisong takes times and has a cost.

Funding developers comes with funding everything that allows them to be funded.

@thibaultamartin @Alexmitter Seconding this. Look at Blender's release announcements and stuff. It would not be as successful as it is if they only paid attention to code. (hec, they wouldn't have this much income to hire full-time programmers if they didn't have the level of support they have)

@grainloom @thibaultamartin The issue with Gnome sadly is that the organisation often wastes a lot of money for travelling around and social activism, thats all I dont want to see. I already donate to quite a few gnome related projects like Lollypop or Mobian as I can trust them to not waste it for stuff that really helps no one.

@Alexmitter @grainloom The Foundation’s purpose is to support the community of contributors, e.g. by providing a Gitlab instance, not to fund developers.

Community bonding is extremely important for large projects. Without bonding they fall in pieces.
People need to spend time together to agree, disagree, discuss, get new ideas, do hackfests, onboard new people.

A dead community doesn’t attract contributors.

@thibaultamartin

Having sysadmins paid (or not) by the foundation, and dev paid (or not) by the cooperative sounds weird to me. What about designers?

Also, as I imagine it, working at a coop is not beeing solely "a dev". It is beeing co-responsible of the goals and the means of production. So I tend to think communication and fundraising should rather be a rotational charge than a profession in itself.

@Alexmitter

@thibaultamartin I answered the first option because I think that's the best option. However I am commenting with the caveat that I don't personally use Gnome, but I think this model should be how software does things.

@migratory That usually is the most efficient way to contribute to projects :)

The GNOME wiki is really more than decent for Newcomers. If you don’t already contribute, make sure to have a look at it.

But not everyone has the skills nor the time to contribute to their beloved projects

wiki.gnome.org/Newcomers/

@thibaultamartin another option for "smaller, one time donations, when i can" might have fit many people's situation. Also, i probably won't give if i have to use some closed source, data miner/gatekeeper payment method. IOW, A privacy and freedom-respecting solution, like an xmr address, that allows me to donate what i want, when i want.

@thibaultamartin I wouldn't be interested in paying into a pool. I would only be interested in paying for specific features (or a specific feature area + general direction), maintenance, and bug fixes, either as a "bounty" or a patreon-like thing through the course of development. in the latter case, would only be interested in paying in if I know who the developers are so I have some confidence that the work will get done

@thibaultamartin I see discussion about subscription 'vs' bounties in this thread. I just want to throw in Quadratic Voting/Funding as a possibility, although the infrastructure for using it is not so well developed yet.

In any case, I'm interested in the progress of gnome personally, and could imagine supporting.

@thibaultamartin This matches the vision we have for @snowdrift (Snowdrift.coop).

I happen to be a KDE user (but other family uses GNOME). Anyway, point is: I don't want to just unilaterally donate, I want to have a collective agreement with the widest possible crowd and we all just need to chip in a tiny amount.

That's the vision of crowdmatching that @snowdrift has, and the trouble is just being under-resourced itself in terms of getting launched (help welcome!!)

@thibaultamartin @snowdrift

GNOME might be an ideal project we'd support at Snowdrift.coop once we get to or past initial beta functioning. And we'd love to have dialogue with people about that.

We think we diagnosed the issues well and have a good prescription, but realizing it is still less trivial than people might imagine (partly given doing all we can to not compromise on FLO and co-op values in our own development).

@wolftune @thibaultamartin @snowdrift snowdrift sounds like a really good way to fund opensource projects. I like that its a co-op!

@thibaultamartin I'm a KDE person so I don't believe in the concepts of gnome. So a no for me.

@thibaultamartin A suggestion: why not present a more detailed project, poll for what parts of the project backers are likely to support (and how much) then publish a final project, focusing on the parts that most people seem to want?

Right now I find it difficult to answer to the poll.

@bzg I can’t say much right now, but there’s something in the works in that direction 🙂

If you’re interested, you can PM me an email or a Matrix ID to talk about it in greater lengths

@thibaultamartin I'm not /not/ interested but I can't make room for new interesting things right now. If you think I can somehow help, please email* me with what I can do, I'd be happy to help. Thanks!

* My presence here is random, my presence on IRC, matrix, younameit is close to zero.

@thibaultamartin I am a member of several cooperative (one being hashbang.coop ). I can help if needed to build that !

@thibaultamartin (j'organise#MécénatCodeLutin)

Si c'est une coopérative, ce n'est pas une association. Ça change quelque-chose pour nous car don ≠ prestation commerciale (fiscalité, TVA...).

Bien sûr, le projet GNOME rentre tout à fait dans les critères de ce qu'on pourrait soutenir.

@thibaultamartin nous avons deux façons de voir les choses :
- soit c'est le demande ponctuelle d'une somme importante, dans ce cas oui "dossier chiffré et solide" pour un objectif "SMART"
- soit c'est un projet au long cours, dans ce cas ce sera une somme plus petite mais renouvelée annuellement

Ces deux approches sont bien distinctes et complémentaires.

@thibaultamartin

Toutefois, je dois dire que, par expérience, les gestionnaires de bureaux (XFCE...) que j'ai proposé au #MécénatCodeLutin ne rencontrent pas un grand succès lors des votes. Je ne sais pas pourquoi.

@lutindiscret en l’occurrence, concernant ce type d’association il s’agit d’éviter l’effet crowdfunding qui ne met l’accent que sur les actions « coup de poing », à fort impact.

Il s’agit dans notre vision d’une méthode assez peu saine, puisque tout le travail invisible de santé du projet/code n’est pas très vendeur pour les profanes.

Nous sommes plutôt intéressé par un financement plus diffus mais continu. Les petits ruisseaux :)

@thibaultamartin oui c'est tout à fait ça. Dans la phase 2 de #MécénatCodeLutin il s'agit de petits dons annuel qu'on renouvelle avec l'idée que sans viser une évolution majeure, ces sommes doivent servir au travail de maintenance de longue haleine, moins visibles, plus ingrat mais non moins indispensable. Nous utilisons @Liberapay afin que ces petits flux s'agglomèrent.

Peut-être que c'est aussi aux distributions de reversées une partie des dons perçus aux gestionnaires de bureaux intégrés.

@lutindiscret attention, il ne s’agit pas de la fondation GNOME car celle ci s’interdit de financer le développement de GNOME, notamment pour éviter les conflits d’intérêt avec les membres de son « advisory board ».

Il n’existe aujourd’hui pas de structure légale dédiée au financement du développement de GNOME. La fondation ne fait que mettre à disposition de la communauté les moyens techniques ou logistiques pour s’épanouir !

La structure dont il est question vient répondre à ce manque

@lutindiscret la forme légale n’est pas encore définie, un avocat planche sur le sujet !

Il y a fort à parier pour des raisons de souplesse qu’il s’agisse d’une association, mais je retiens bien que la différence a son importance pour vous !

Merci pour cette réponse rapide et encourageante

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